MAS 36 Survey ... Updated 04-13-2010

The country that avoids war and the country that fights but has a hard time winning have been combined. The Swiss made some excellent firearms and the French made some unique and occasionally inspiring ones. We have added the Belgian and Dutch since they are neighbors.

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1886lebel
Sustaining Member
Posts: 242
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:57 pm

MAS 36 Survey ... Updated 04-13-2010

Post by 1886lebel » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:06 pm

I would like to ask all our valued members to please help and contribute to this post as much as you can .... This is how we learn and disseminate information regarding our weapons we collect and shoot.

This information was started originally on the French Forums on Gunboards.com but I think that our members here would like to help with this as well.

If you want to contribute information on this please either post it here or go to Gunboards.com and send Thomas M. Giles known as orcmastiffs a PM there with the information. If it is posted here I will send him the information to him directly.

I will up-date this post whenever he does over there

Thanks

Patrick
Last edited by 1886lebel on Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:05 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Vive la République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

Vive le Pinard !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0
1886lebel
Sustaining Member
Posts: 242
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:57 pm

Post by 1886lebel » Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:12 pm

In light of the new information which is becoming available, it is past time that the MAS Survey be resurrected for the New Board. Should those with the authority deem this project worthy, it is hoped that they will elevate this list to the active "Sticky" status, which it once enjoyed. The down side of this, of course, is my lack of technical facility and my pedantic writing style. It is my pledge that I shall enlist a grandson to teach me the mysteries of posting captioned, thumb-nail pictures, and I shall limit my commentary to a brief synopses of what has been learned, to date.

We shall continue to retrieve some of the lost history of the MAS 36. By comparative listing of known artifacts, the anecdotal tales which accompany these rifles may be confirmed or rejected, and fresh inquiries and debates enjoined. The monthly production rates will reflect upon the rush to war and provide a glimpse of French industrial society, from the mid 1930s through the end of the war years.

Primarily this will be a compendium of butt stock serial numbers, and the month and year exhibited within the "MA" cartouche. But beyond this, the incorporation of committed changes may be dated, sub contractors identified and tracted, lead time of barrel production established, and anomalies noted.

Please feel free to include such things as the type of upper band, rear sight base, magazine follower, receiver and bayonet. The manufacture's code, the acceptance proofs/ inspection stamps upon the receiver ring, the date and codes of the barrel, and any other information which you feel is of note, may ultimately prove invaluable.

I am neither an expert nor an advanced collector. If I have an expertise, it is in metal working and heavy industrial technique. This list is the result of contributions from the general membership, many of whom are far more knowledgeable than myself. Should any disagree with a conclusion which I have drawn, or how the list is expanding, let it be known. This is how we shall progress and learn.

Thomas M. Giles/ Orc Mastiffs

A SHORT AND BIASED TAKE ON THE MAS Mle 1936

Best known as the last bolt action design, adopted for general issue to troops of the line, it is often overlooked that they are also an engineering masterpiece of utility and economy, given the materials and industrial techniques of the time. Machined castings and forgings, each served multiple tasks in securing both the integrity and function of this rifle. Should you be fortunate enough to have an original, matching rifle, you will know how solid and silent it is; as if hand-fitted to be mute in the field, until bidden to speak. And when it speaks, it does so with an authority and accuracy that rivals or surpasses any of its contemporaries; while the aperture sight serves to bring the myopic and the astigmatic back into the effective ranks of the fire team.

The solid receiver may have harkened back to the redoubtable Lebel, but it also anticipated all modern military designs. The large diameter bolt body assures a smooth, consistent transition that gives the push feed its reliability, as the rear lugs facilitate the short, quick bolt-stroke. While the magazine and the step contoured barrel are decidedly Mauser's innovations, the magazine floorplate is a distinct improvement, and French mastery of woodworking has given the stock a unique self-bedding feature, as well as the elegance of the European Walnut, which it utilized.

But, on May 10, 1940, when the Germans began to storm across the borders, only 200,000 of these rifles would have been available to the Armies of France and her colonies. It was for the Lebel and the Berthier, reworked and upgraded to varying degrees, to arm all but a small percentage of those who stood against the flood. Their chronologies will be found on the other lists.

################################################## ############

G 11X October 1937
G 2494 February 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver ["S" at 3 o'clock in cartouche]i.e.,[S@3o'clock]
G 6241 March 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,C, stamps/ Barrel top-FULL SERIAL NUMBER, "E" & ["G" in shield] / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1937 [S@3o'clock]
G 11803 June 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,C, stamps/ Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in shield] / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1938
G 12806 June 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,C, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in shield] / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1938
G 167XX September 1938
G 325XX February 1939
G 34140 Unknown /Type 1 receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"G" MAT 1937
G 347XX February 1939
G 35223 February 1939
G 38551 February 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps /"LK5" MARKED stock / Barrel flat-MAT 1938
G 386XX February 1939
G 38867 February 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel flat-"C" MAT 1938
G 405XX Unknown 1939 /"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel flat-MAT 1938
G 40766 March 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Barrel flat "C" MAT 1938
G 42XXX March 1939
G 42570 March 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Barrel flat "A" MAT 1937 / [Grip Flat unmarked/unnumbered]
G 45078 April 1939
G 453XX April 1939
G 47381 April 1939 / Type 1 band & receiver
G 47602 April 1939
G 512XX May 1939 /Type 1 band / Barrel flat-MAT 1938
G 52733 May 1939 /Type 1 bolt and band-"E", L,M,G stamps (?) [S@3 o'clock] "C" MAT 1938, "E" stamp to upper barrel
G 56624 June 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps /
G 57353 Unknown /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1938
G 61474 June 1939
G 63627 June 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1938
G 67719 July 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver / Barrel flat-"C" MAT 1938
G 6913X July 1939 /Type 1 receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
G 69739 July 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
G 73351 July 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
G 74981 August 1939 / Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
G 75895 August 1939
G 76275 August 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel flat-"A" MAS 1938 [S@3o'clock]
G 76328 Unknown 1939
G 77597 Unknown 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel flat-"LY" SACM 1938
G 78767 August 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver
G 80708 September 1939 / Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps /"LK5" MARKED stock
G 84965 September 1939 / Type 1 band & receiver-"E" [Matching, Unmodified, but blued rather than 'stoved']
G 85722 September 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver
G 91765 October 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver
G 92078 October 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Bolt stem-UNPREFIXED #414
G 95914 October 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver [Grip Flat marked-"18"/NO "LK" on reworked stock][S@3o'clock]
G 97504 October 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"AS" MAS 1939
G 98738 October 1939
G 98904 Unknown 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps

H 30 Unknown 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G stamps, large "F" on wrist behind trigger-guard
H 864 November 1939
H 4720 Unknown 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"A" MAS 1939
H 6163 November 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"A" MAS 1939 [Large "1" just forward of grip flat]
H 8872 December 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"A" MAS 1939
H 117XX December 1939-"E",L,M,G, proof
H 12757 December 1939 /Type 2 MODIFIED receiver / "LK5" MARKED stock / [Grip Flat marked-"41", 5mm case][S@3o'clock]
H 1397X December 1939
H 15568 Unknown /Type 1 band [damaged] & receiver
H 17066 December 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
H 20840 January 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G stamps / Barrel flat MAT 1939
H 24017 January 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
H 243XX January 1940
H 29251 January 1940
H 33057 January 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / "LK5" MARKED stock / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1937 / [Grip Flat marked-"11", 5mm case]
H 34020 January 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"AS" MAS 1939
H 36706 unknown /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / "LK5" MARKED stock [Grip Flat marked-"10", in 5mm case]
H 38141 February 1940 / "LK5" MARKED stock [Grip Flat marked-"23"]
H 38566 February 1940
H 40961 Unknown /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver [No 'LK5' or Grip flat number]
H 42587 February 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver / "LK5" MARKED stock [Grip flat marked-"8"]
H 45671 February 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver
H 49756 February 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver
H 62535 March 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M, CIRCLE "C", stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1939
H 63518 March 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M, CIRCLE "C", stamps
H 637XX March 1940
H 6399X March 1940
H 72488 March 1940
H 72756 Unknown / Type 1 receiver
H 73333 April 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom flat-"A" MAS 1939
H 74410 April 1940 /Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / "LK5" MARKED stock / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"A" MAT 1939 / [Grip Flat marked-"2", 6mm case]
H 74991 Unknown 1940 / Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1940
H 753XX April 1940
H 75983 April 1940 / Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M, CIRCLE "C" stamps
H 77116 April 1940 / Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1940
H 79037 April 1940
H 80324 Unknown 1940 / Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,(?), stamps / "LK(?)" MARKED stock / [Grip Flat marked-"31", 5mm case]
H 80671 April 1940
H 82477 April 1940
H 8254X April 1940
H 82932 April 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
H 83120 April 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,(?) stamps
H 84344 Unknown 1940 / Type 1 band & receiver
H 91525 Unknown 1940 / Barrel flat-MAT 1940
H 963XX April 1940
H 96738 MAY 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / PERHAPS a DELAYED ACCEPTANCE rifle, as the J 6187 would otherwise be antecedent

J 3372 May 1940 / Type 1 band-Type 2 receiver-MF,"E",MF,L,M, stamps - MANUFRANCE !
J 3381 Unknown / Type 2 receiver-MF,"E",MF,L,M, stamps / Barrel flat-"A" MF 1940 / Barrel top "E" - MANUFRANCE !
J 3823 May 1940
J 3882 May 1940 / Type 1 band & Type 2 receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
J 6187 April 1940 [?] Out of sequence/ see H 96738 & J 3823/3882/3381/3372, above.
J 8222 May 1940 / Type 2 receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
J 8254 May 1940
J 8500 May 1940 / Type 1 band & Type2 receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
J 18082 Unknown / Type 2 receiver
J 18711 May 1940 / Type 2 receiver
J 18920 May 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / "LK5" MARKED stock
J 20233 June 1940
J 21044 Unknown /Type 1 band & Type 2 receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Barrel bottom flats-"A" MAS 1940
J 24310 Unknown / Type 1 band & Type 2 receiver- Only "E" & ONE OTHER STAMP[May be "MF"] on receiver ring / LK5 MARKED / [Grip Flat marked 20 in 5mm case] NO CARTOUCH on an UNREWORKED, matching numbered STOCK! Receiver S/N PREFIX is a LATIN "I" [All Other Numbers are the Script "J" & Match]

K 2043 Unknown 1940 /Type 2 receiver-MF,"E",MF,L,M, stamps - MANUFRANCE
K 2502 May 1940
K 3184 May 1940 /-MF,"E",MF,L,M, stamps / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Barrel bottom flats- "RG" MAS 1940 / [BEECH STOCK appears to have original Serial Number?] Type 2 receiver, "LK5" Mark, "K" stamped over the area of "MA", within the cartouche! - MANUFRANCE
K 3462 Unknown / Barrel Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1940
K 5XXX June? 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 receiver-"MF","E" - MANUFRANCE
K 7227 June 1940 /"MF" Mfg./"E" - MANUFRANCE
K 11569 June 1940 /"MF" Mfg. - MANUFRANCE
K 12185 June 1940 /MF,"E",MF,L,M, stamps - MANUFRANCE
K 13089 June 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 receiver-MF,"E",MF,L,M, stamps / Barrel bottom flat-"A" MF 1940 - MANUFRANCE
K 202XX June 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 receiver-MF,"E",MF,L,M, stamps / Barrel bottom flat-MAT 1940 - MANUFRANCE
K 20829 June 1940
K 22014 Unknown /Type 2 receiver-MF,"E",MF,L,M, stamps / Type 1 sight base - MANUFRANCE
K 22625 June 1940 /Type 2 receiver-"LK5" marked
K 22611 June 1940 /Type 2 receiver-"E" ['NO "MF" MARKINGS]
K 24453 June 1940
K 25980 June 1940 /Type 3a band & Type 2 receiver / Barrel bottom flat-"A" MAT 1940
K 28218 June 1940 /Type 3a band & Type 2 receiver-MF,"E",MF,L,M, stamps - MANUFRANCE
K 28278 June 1940 /Type 3a band & Type 2 receiver-MF,"E",MF,L,M, stamps - MANUFRANCE

L 2421 Unknown /Type 2 receiver / Barrel Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1940
L 3357 Unknown /Type 2 receiver
L 35XX June 1940
************************************************** *******************
The "MYSTERY" rifles are eccentric to serial-production. They are divided only upon the basis of whether they have been stamped with an un-prefix number, or are sterile/devoid of any numbers. The "Sterile" examples uniquely exhibit improper headspace. (Three of the seven reported examples will not close on "GO") Aside from this defect, both "Numbered" and "Sterile" units are possessed of the following anomalies:
1] They are unissued; perhaps unfired.
2] They are a collection of near-Armistice parts, some 'pickled'/acid-etched and not 'stoved'/blackened; some appearing to have been defective/rejected parts.
3] The quality of assemblage is not as consistent, nor to the standard of serial-production examples.
4] The bayonets are from earlier rifles, or replacements of a latter-day.
5] None are import marked.
6] Some have incorrect sight-leafs, and will not shoot to point of aim.
7] They all have 'Type 2' factory receivers, some of the later type.
8] Some have a 'sticky' bolt-cap, which requires detenting the striker, and the use of a gripping tool, for removal.

MYSTERY STERILE:
[A] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Bottom barrel flat-"RG" MAS 1939 / Receiver left flat marked "MAS Mle 1936" on partially milled surface [banner milled]
Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 1 band /Type 1 rear sight / UN-PREFIXED #4039 on bolt-stem /
[C] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight /
[D] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom barrel flat-"A" MAT 1940
[E] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom barrel flat-"C" MAT 1940
[F] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 1 band /Type 1 rear sight
[G] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight

Exclusive to the "Numbered" examples:
1] The font of the numbering to very different than that which is used upon the serialized rifles.
2] The bolt-stems, when marked, are numbered upon the outboard side.

MYSTERY NUMBERED
# 34 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 1 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom barrel flat-"RG" MAS 1940 [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER] Stoved except bolt, upper-band, handguard ferrules & forearm fulcrum-tang
# 171 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 1 band /Type 1 rear sight / [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER]
# 2XX Unknown /Type 2 receiver & band /Type 1 rear sight / [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER] Stoved except for the bolt, ferrules, sight-slider & lower-band
# 282 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom barrel flat-"A" MAT 1940
# 320 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band
# 344 Unknown /'stoved' except for bolt which is NOT serialized
# 356 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band
# 360 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom barrel flat-"A" MAS 1940 / [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER] Barreled-receiver was never stoved
# 373 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band
# 414 Unknown /Bolt only
# 420 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Bottom barrel flat-"C" MAT 1940 / [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER] Barreled receiver & bolt were never stoved
# 432 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"?" / Bottom barrel flat-"A" MAT 1940 [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER] Non-Matching die set used for the "2"]
# 486 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom barrel flat-"RG" MAS 1940 [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER]
# 4039 Unknown /Bolt only [Reported on "Mystery Sterile" Line 'B']
************************************************** *******************
TIR REDUIT .22 calibre, full size MAS 1936 training rifle, made for and accepted by the Vichy military. By all indications this production run appears to be a minor footnote, with 1,000 units being fabricated per month, at least during the first four months. But it is the earliest documented series to incorporate all of the design changes that make the post-Liberation "script prefix" blocks unique from the pre-June 25, 1940 Armastice, MAS 36s.
Tir reduit 5.5 L:
# 146 Unknown / Type 2 upper band [Button cross-pin thread doubler] / [S@3o'clock]
# 923 September 1941 /Type 2 receiver, rear sight assembly & magazine follower /Type 2 upper band
# 1036 Unknown
# 1432 September 1941 /Type 2 receiver, rear sight assembly & magazine followed /Type 2 upper band
# 2721 October 1941
# 3362 November 1941 / Type 2 rear sight assembly / [S@3o'clock]
# 3472 November 1941 /Type 2 receiver, rear sight assembly & magazine follower /Type 2 upper band /Type 1 bayonet with two (2) digit serial number on end cap. [The Barrel flat is sterile/not marked in any way]
# 4439 December 1941 /Type 2 receiver & rear sight assembly /Type 2 upper band
# 12785 May 1942 / [S@3o'clock]
# 14046 Unknown /Type 2 receiver, rear sight assembly & magazine follower /Type 2 upper band
################################################## ##################################

K 31567 Unknown /1940 barrel
K 319XX October 1944 /1940 barrel/Type 2 rear sight base/ Type 1 sight leaf & slider
K 32430 Unknown /Type 2 MODIFIED rear sight base
K 45054 Unknown /MAS 1940 barrel
K 60166 Unknown /"A" MAS 1940 barrel
K 61223 Unknown / C.R.39 receiver
K 63785 Unknown /"A" MAS 1940 barrel/Type 2 MODIFIED rear base & sight/Type 2 lower band/Walnut stocks/[Pictures below by '28 mosin']
K 884XX Unknown / MAT 1945 barrel
K 94536 Unknown /Type 2 receiver/"I(?)-Y" MAS 1945
K 99798 Unknown /Type 2 receiver

L 13025 Unknown / barrel bottom flat-MAT 1945
L 27313 Unknown / Barrel bottom flat-"AS" MAS 1945
L 514XX Unknown / Barrel bottom flat-MAT 1940
L 64782 October 1945
L 65371 Unknown / 1945 barrel
L 65693 Unknown 1945 /Type 2 receiver / Type 2 rear sight / Walnut stock
L 72943 Unknown /Type 2 receiver / MAT 1945 barrel / Type 2 rear sight
L 839XX October 1945
L 910XX Unknown 1945 /Type 2 receiver / 1945 barrel

M 23XX Unknown / Barrel 1945
M 7977 Unknown 1945 /
M 128XX Unknown / Barrel 1945
M 18372 January 1946 /
M 22001 Unknown / Matching Script S/N on Type 2 (stamped) mag plate & triggerguard
M 33001 February [year not discernable] Type 1 mag plate / Type 2 triggerguard / Walnut stock
M 36593 March 1946 /Type 1 mag-plate /Stamped triggerguard
M 435XX March [year not discernable]
M 49760 April 1946 / "A" MAS 1946 barrel
M 59628 April 1946 /
M 61474 Unknown / 1946 barrel
M 692XX Unknown / 1946 barrel
M 79798 June 1946 / Walnut stock / Matching Script S/N on Type 2 (stamped) mag plate & triggerguard
M 87195 July 1946 / [S@3o'clock]
M 88590 July 1946 / [S@3o'clock]

N 23738 December 1946 /Type 3 lower band / Stamped triggerguard / beech stocks / 1946 barrel / black enamel finish
N 55448 September 1947 /Type 4 band / Stamped mag plate & triggerguard / Beech stocks

P 435XX Unknown / Barrel flat-"AS" MAT 1949

Q 306X April 1950
Q 9263 Unknown / 'LG 48' Configured
Q 20040 Unknown / 'LG 48' Configured
Q 59326 Unknown 1951 / Barrel-MAS 1951 / "E",B,G, / Beech stock
Q 73579 Unknown
Q 76747 Unknown
Q 93712 Unknown / 'LG 48' Configured

FG 64XX Unknown
FG 483XX Unknown / 'LG 48' Configured

FH 11XXX Unknown / Barrel flat-(MAS 1952 FYa)?
FH 12811 July 1952
FH 45001 Unknown / 1936 Configured
FH 490XX Unknown / 'LG 48' Configured
FH 600XX February 1953 / 'LG 48' Configured

FJ 1728 March 1955
################################################## ##################################

MAS Mle 1936 C.R.39 Carbine

Cursive/Script "F" Series:
F 15XX Unknown / Type 1 band / Walnut fore-stocks / 'bare' aluminum butt-stock / Black enamel finish /
F 19XX Unknown / Type 1 band / Barrel dated 1940 / Walnut fore-stock / 'bare' aluminum butt-stock / Black enamel finish / fabric sling
F 19XX Unknown / Type 1 band / Beech fore-stocks / 'bare' aluminum butt-stock / Black enamel finish / fabric sling
F 54XX Unknown / (Receiver only) / Parkerized (?)
F 194XX Unknown / Type 1 band / Beech fore-stock / 'bare' aluminum butt-stock / Blued finish (?)
F 27037 Unknown / Type 2 receiver-MAS 1936 CR 39{centered] / Beech fore-stock / 'bare aluminum butt-stock / Black enamel finish

Roman/Latin block-font "F" Series:
F 305XX Unknown / Type 3 band / Beech fore-stock / 'green rubber' coated butt-stock / Barrel-flats "CS" MAS 1952 / Parkerized finish / leather sling
F 32947 Unknown / Bare-stock / Kit assemblage
F 338XX Unknown / Type 3 band / Beech fore-stock / 'green rubber' coated butt-stock / vertical serial number / Parkerized finish / leather sling
################################################## ##################################

MAS Mle 1936-51

F 115XX Unknown 1953
F 20033 November 1953 / Beech stock
F 22126 Unknown 1953
F 22705 January 1954 / Beech stock
F 530XX Unknown
F 600XX October 1956 / 1963 barrel / Walnut stocks [?]
F 62568 July 1955
F 725XX Unknown
F 733XX December 1955 / Beech stocks
F 75453 January 1956 / Beech stocks
F 87220 March 1956 / Beech stocks
F 92681 July 1956 / "E",B,G, / Beech stocks
F 95172 September 1956 / Beech stocks
F 99218 October 1956 / Walnut stocks [?]

G 4141 Unknown 1957 / Beech stocks
G 16469 August 1957 / Beech stocks
G 17746 September 1957 / Beech stocks
G 19051 October 1957
G 20781 October 1957
G 20782 October 1957
G 23896 Unknown
G 24213 August (?)1957 / Beech stocks
G 27027 Unknown 1958 / Beech stocks
G 28915 February 1958
G 32453 April 1958 / Beech stocks
G 42075 September 1958 / "E" / Beech stocks
G 45258 November 1958
G 46063 November 1958
Last edited by 1886lebel on Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:04 pm, edited 9 times in total.
Vive la République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

Vive le Pinard !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0
1886lebel
Sustaining Member
Posts: 242
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:57 pm

Post by 1886lebel » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:03 pm

1) The Macaron, Macaroon, Roundel, Comite de la Reception, Manufacture d'Armes and 'MA' cartouche.
a] At the top is the month of acceptance
b] At the 3 O'Clock is the Controller or Director General's code
c] At 6 O'Clock is the year
d] At 9 O'Clock is the Manufacturer's code (The "S" being St Etienne)
(Note: Some small percentage of the cartouches have the '3/9 o'clock' position reversed; March, 1938 / December, 1939 / July, 1946, and more to be heard from!)
Image

2) Forward Reciever Ring Stamps
a] Top - Final Firing Proof "E", Diamond (rhomboid) "L", Oval "M", and Shield "G", form the most common stamp-pattern, post May of 1938.
b] Middle -"E", L,M, CIRCLE "C", stamps, 'Shield' Inspection stamp is absent
c] Bottom - MF,"E",MF,L,M, stamps, 'Shield' Inspection stamp is absent, MANUFRANCE - (Common among the "K" series & found on some early "J"s)
Image

3) Receiver-Final Firing Proof "E", Diamond (rhomboid) "L", Oval "M", and Shield "G", form the most common proof pattern, post June of 1938.
Image

4) Receiver-"E", L,M, CONCENTRIC CIRCLES, proofs ('Shield' Inspection stamp absent)
Image

5) Receiver-"E", L, M, "MF" (ManuFrance) proofs ('Shield' Inspection stamp absent)
Image

6) Barrel top-
a] "E" & ["G" in circle] (April, 1940)
b] FULL SERIAL NUMBER, "E"[Old Style] & ["G" in shield] / Note: Shield "C" on receiver ring (March, 1938)
Image

7) Barrel bottom flat-
a] "RG" MAS 1937 (March, 1938)
b] "A" MAS 1939 (April, 1940)
Image
Vive la République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

Vive le Pinard !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0
1886lebel
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Post by 1886lebel » Wed Jan 14, 2009 1:05 pm

My apologies for these photographs being long overdue, and again for their inferior quality. Hopefully this will change, but for now, let them serve as a visual guide to some of the vague and arbitrary terms used in the 'List', above. The descriptions, left to right, will attempt to wed these terms to the pictures.

1) Two June 1938 issued rifles that bookend production for that month. They are identical as to component-part suppliers, markings, proofs, inspection stamps and both are matching. The top rifle was slung, during its service life, after the fashion of the cavalry, from the side loop of the lower band, while the bottom example indicates attachment to the lower loop, as prescribed for the infantry rifles. The 'cavalry' rifle's barrel throat shows more erosion than does the 'infantry' unit. Both will group to a sub-two inch expectation, from the bench, with French military ammunition.
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2) Receiver types are shown here: (Note also the 'Type1' rear sight bases shown on these three examples)
a] On the left is the 'Type 1'. This is the originally configured tang for all rifles, until completion of the "H" series.
b] Next is a 'Type 2 MODIFIED' receiver. Many such rifles are associated with the addition of a 5mm or 6mm number(s) added to the pistol-grip flat of the butt stock. The modification appears on "G"s and "H"s.
c] A 'Type 2 FACTORY' notch, typical of those pre-Armistice rifles of the "J", "K", and "L" series. From examples, this appears to be the type found upon a 'Mystery sterile/numbered' rifle, as well.
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3) The four upper band configurations may conflict with those listed elsewhere, but the 'List' has established, from examples, that the sequence below is correct.
a] 'Type 1' slab-sided upper band, with off-set piling hook and small, half-spherical terminus; this is the band used exclusively throughout the "G" and "H" series, and into the "J"s and "K"s. It is also found upon the earliest 'Mystery numbered' rifles.
b] 'Type 2' soldered grommet plug, used to extend the bearing surface for the cross-pin threads. Either the tin or flux residue, causes the 'stoved' finish to fail at this location, exposing a bright ring about the grommet. The piling hook is off-set with, in some apparently later instances, has a flattened terminus of slightly increased diameter, similar to those found upon the Berthier models. The first consistent production usage was in the "Tir reduit" series, of 1941. This is also evident in later 'Mystery' rifles, though the rounded terminus is more often encountered.
c] 'Type 3a' mill-step doubler, covering one-half of the area aft of the piling hook cleavus. The 'Type 3b', which is not shown, had the mill-step extended over the entire length, and is thought to be a later, production expediency. Again, the off-set piling hook is tipped with the Berthier style terminus, which is encountered upon the subsequent band types, as well. This third type of band is found on near, post-Liberation rifles, though occasioned upon a few pre-Armistice [late "K" series], modified or reworked rifles, contemporary to that period.
d] 'Type 4' has the piling hook and the doubler as a single unit. This is brazed/soldered to the upper band. It is the predominant late-post-war type which is universally encountered on reworked rifles. The piling hook is straight, lacking the offset.
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4) Lower bands are basically of two types:
a] On the left is the stamped ring, 'Type 3', common to post-war and reworked rifles. The 'Type 2' may have been milled or cast, with over twice the hinge length, where the ring attaches to the band.
b] Three views of the 'Type 1' band, shown from the left-hand, the bottom, and the right-hand, respectively. The left hand, 'Cavalry', sling slot is formed by the annular barrel of the tension screw housing. The bottom slot is the 'Infantry' sling attach point. The right hand view shows the hinged joint, almost invisible due to the excellent fit-up, when installed. This 'Type 1' is correct for all pre and wartime rifles [with the exception of later "K"s].
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Notes on sight assemblies, bayonets and their captive-channels:

1) Type 1 SIGHT which was used, barring further revelations, until the Armistice. Note the slide-stop ridges on the 'slider spring-arm' and the closed upper end of its channel)
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2 & 3) Type 2 MODIFIED/Transitional: This first appeared on the elegant Vichy tir reduit sub-calibre trainer of 1941 and then on the first post-Liberation serial production "K"s, starting in October, 1944. The 'arm' is now smooth and locked by a detenting button which engages the notches, but the 'channel' is still closed at its forward end.
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4) Type 2 is the most common configuration found early-on after Liberation, and upon most all reworked examples. The 'arm-channel' is milled through at its forward end. The sight remains as discribed in "2 & 3".
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5) Some common, ,basic and distinct types of BAYONET barrels/handles, showing design and serial number placement changes. Variations in the knurls/checking are not considered as they occure randomly among the different configurations. (Note: Any of the top three could be correct for a reworked rifle, while, specifically, one of the bottom two is proper for 'stoved' or black enameled examples) Top to Bottom:
a] Late, sterile/unserialized bayonet with an anodized-looking finish and a slotted end-cap. This is sometimes found on reworked rifles. The 'failsafe' unlocking access hole is found here, as well as on the next two. It can be seen aft of the forward locking-sear, and when it is aligned with the spanner-hole in the bayonet-channel, the locking-sears may be depressed. (REF: More on this in the figure #7 narrative)
b] Second down, and perhaps the most common, is the heavily parkerized, sterile handle with the usual style end-cap.
c] Middle unit is distinct as its end-cap is marked with the last two digits of its host-rifle's serialization.
d] Second from bottom is 'stoved', end marked, but without the access hole. This may be correct for some of the "K"s, "L"s and even the "J"s, and would be so for later 'script' rifles, so long as the black 'stoving' or paint were used as their general finish. (The first confirmed use of this type, of which I am aware, is with the Vichy "tir reduit" trainer of 1941. I have witnessed this configuration on "Ks and Js"; sometimes near, but never matching.)
e] Bottom is the first configuration with the full serial number stamped upon the aft side of the handle. It has no 'lightening-hole' and the end-cap is blank. This is the 'Type' found with the "F", "G" and "H" series, and may have still been used for the "J,K (through serial # 25,000/?/30,000) or L (to #4,500). I am not aware of such an example for these later, pre-Armistice series, and any help on this matter will be appreciated and credited.
6) This view of the end-caps corresponds to the above figure #5; top to bottom. Note the the three upper examples appear to be 'staked' at the spanner notches or at the end of the slot, in the upper instance.
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7) This is a simple view of the captive bayonet-housing/channel/copula. The 'hole' at the forward end served as an assembly aid, allowing purchase for the spanner which was used to install the unit into the forearm. (Note that the aft end of the 'channel' is threaded and is secured by the thread-block/nut that is imbedded within the stock; the top of which may be seen just aft of the tube, and is below the fair of the barrel inlet.) When a secondary unlocking methed was required, the simple and elegant solution was to incorporate a hole into the bayonet-handle which, when aligned with the spanner-hole of the channel-tube, would allow the lock-linkage to be depressed. Since this linkage does not appear prone to breakage, there may be some weight to the tale that the measure was necessitated by the occasion of two rifles finding themselves locked together by the same bayonet !
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Vive la République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

Vive le Pinard !
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