Where I have been ... Berthier History

The country that avoids war and the country that fights but has a hard time winning have been combined. The Swiss made some excellent firearms and the French made some unique and occasionally inspiring ones. We have added the Belgian and Dutch since they are neighbors.

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1886lebel
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Where I have been ... Berthier History

Post by 1886lebel » Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:30 pm

If all you have been wondering where I have been ... well I have been researching a bunch of stuff on the Lebel and Berthier from books, documents, etc., etc. ... I am trying to compile all the stuff in different posts and formats .... Some of it complete, some needs lots of work, etc., etc. ... This one is starting to get almost finished but I keep finding new stuff all the time so it keeps getting tweaked but here you can see my progress ... I also posted one of the different type of Berthier Chargers used .... hope you all can read it all ... do not get eye strains

Patrick

Berthier Carabine, Mousqueton et Fusil Historie

1887 - The Comité de L'Artillerie headed by Général Gallifet decided to experiment in making a carbine version of the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 "Lebel" with the following requirements: It had to use the same cartridge already in service, Cartouche à Balle Ordinaire Modèle 1886, the magazine capacity had to equal or better 5 rounds and the final weight of the weapon shall not be over 3,6 kg (7.93 pounds). Under the direction of the L'Ecole Normale de Tir (E.N.T.) a prototype carbine which was to be called the Carabine d'Essai Modèle 1887 was built. This carbine was basically was a shortened rifle with a 6 round capacity with a shortened butt stock, forearm, barrel and a modified rear sight. The experiment did not meet expectations of the Comité de L'Artillerie due to a number of reasons with the main ones being it unable to meet the weight factor as well as the magazine tube system did not work properly unless it under 4 rounds. The project was finally dropped in February of 1890 but 45 years later it was revived again with successful results resulting in the Mousqueton de Artillerie et Cavalerie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 Raccourci 1935.

Émile Berthier, a mechanical engineer of the Algerian Railway System with one of the four subsidiary companies, La Compagnie Bône-Guelma , had two great passions in life: dirigible balloons and firearms proposed his firearm system based on the en-bloc packet/charger system used by Austrian designer Ferdinand Mannlicher to the Comité de L'Artillerie and Section Technique de L'Armement (S.T.A.) on June 10th. He is at first ignored and discouraged by the S.T.A from building a firearm but in the end won his case to build a weapon for trials the next year.

1888 - Under the direction of Monsieur Berthier L'Atelier de Puteaux (APX) helped build a prototype called the Berthier Boitier No1 which was tested at Mont Valérien in December of that year which impressed the various commissions/committees to proceed with the testing. They recommended to him to develop two different carbine models, one for the cavalerie (cavalry) and other for the artillerie (artillery). The basic design of his first carbines, called Berthier Boitiers was based upon the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 "Lebel" with its massive solid receiver and two piece stock but instead of using the tubular magazine system he extensively modified it to use the en-bloc packet/charger system.

1889 - Monsieur Berthier was to develop the two different prototypes of Berthier Boitiers both which were 1005mm (39.5 inch) long, the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Essais No2 et No2bis and Carabine d'Cavalarie Essais No3 et No3bis. These under-went the field trials until February 28th when it was finally decided by the various commissions/committees that his weapon system would be adopted for service as it was found his weapons could be fastly loaded as these fired 26 rounds in 1 M 10 S compared to the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 "Lebel" 21 rounds in 1 M 34 S. It was during this period that Monsieur Berthier decided to go from a 4 round charger to a 3 rounder and abandon the two piece stock for a simple one-piece type that had been a tradition for French regulation carbines. After a series of modifications during that year the weapon ultimately resulted into the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890. This weapon utilized a one piece stock which was stocked to within 1 3/4" of the muzzle, had an overall length of 0,945m (37.2 inch) with a 45,5cm (17.8 inch) barrel, weighing 3,00kg (6.61 pounds), it has two-barrel bands and carries a clearing rod in a channel down the left side of the stock. The sling configuration is unique in that a rotating swivel mounted on the underside of the butt works in combination with a concentric ring mounted on the left side of the bottom barrel band allowing for it to easily be slung over the back of the cavalryman. The carbine is loaded using 3-shot en-bloc packet/charger as this was based on a desire to avoid having a magazine extend below the bottom line of the stock creating any surfaces that might catch on the various equipment carried by mounted troops and not to infringe on Ferdinand Mannlicher patents. The weapon was not designed to accept a bayonet, since all of the mounted units of the French Army were issued lances, sabers or swords as their primary arms. All Berthier carbines of this period lacked top hand guards.

1890 - The Modèle 1890 de Cavalerie was officially adopted for service on March 14, 1890, this weapon was latter called the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 1ème type by the French military to distinguish between the two different types of the same model. Later in that year both the Carabine de Cuirassier Modèle 1890 and Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890 were adopted for service.

The Carabine de Cuirassier Modèle 1890 can be easily distinguished by the lack of a comb on the butt stock to allow for proper sight alignment when the trooper shouldered his carbine wearing the Modèle 1870 Cuirassier helmet. The cheek-pieces of this helmet consisted of a series of scales running the length of the leather chinstrap and these overlapping scales would have prevented the soldier from placing his cheek directly against the raised comb of a normal carbine. Another unique feature was the checkered leather butt plate, as the carbine was intended to be shouldered while wearing a steel breast plate, the use of leather for the butt plate was more suitable than a standard steel butt plate, which would have slipped off the tapered breastplate during recoil. This leather buttplate was held by three horizontal brass screws. These butt plates were made by Établissement Demange et fils and Bld Voltaire à Paris. This weapon weighed a grand total of 2,980 kg (6.56 pounds), was 0,952m (37.4 inch) in overall length with a 45,3cm (17.8 inch) barrel.

The Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890 was developed for the Gendarmerie which were the military police units within the French Army and their carbine is identical to the cavalry carbine except for the location and construction of the top barrel band, which is set back 4 1/2" from the muzzle and designed to accept the Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1890 which was similar to the Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 "Lebel" Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886 with exception of the locking arrangement and a groove that extends down the left side of the bayonet grip to allow clearance for the brass-tipped clearing rod.

1892 - The Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 was adopted for service. As French military doctrine required the artillery to work in close concert with the cavalry and infantry, the artillery crews needed to protect themselves at close quarters and as their mousquetons were considered secondary weapons, they needed a light, handy and easily slung weapon while manning the guns, what was developed was a weapon exactly identical in pattern to the Carabine de Gendarmerie Modèle 1890. The biggest difference was the bayonet it took in this case a sword type bayonet, called the Sabre-Baïonnette Modèle 1892 which has a 15 5/8" long knife-style blade with blood fullers and an unusual grooved spine opposite the cutting edge. The grip of the bayonet is oval in cross section and did not require a groove to allow clearance of the brass-tipped clearing rod. The locking mechanism of the bayonet is identical to that of the Gendarmerie bayonet and are in fact interchangeable as each can mount on both of these particular variants.

1894 - It was found that the sling swivel at the bottom of the stock on the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 was not suited for carrying while mounted therefore it was decided to place a sling bar on the left side of the stock to help carry the weapon in a better position on the back of the trooper.

1895 - The above modification resulted in the Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 2ème type bieng adopted for service on March 25,1895.

1901 - The rear sights on older Berthiers were started to be modified for the new Cartouche à Balle Modèle 1898 D (Desaleux) commonly called Balle D. This consisted of grinding down the right ladder steps on the rear sight for the new rounds trajectory. The rear sight might sometimes be marked with a "D" and the receivers sometimes also be might be marked with "M.D." (Modification Desaleux) on them indicating that they undergone this new change.

1902 - The half/safety notch was no longer made on the cocking piece.

The Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902 was adopted for service on May 22,1902. When the various Vietnamese and Cambodian troops in Indochina were issued the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 and found that it had to much recoil for them the Gouverneur de l'Indochine asked the Ministre de La Guerre to develop a special rifle for them and since the Berthier was already in production as a carbine, it was a rather simple task to produce a scaled-down rifle that would be perfect for the smaller stature colonial troops in Indochina. The weapon produced for them was 1,125m (44 1/16") overall with a 0,635m (25.0 inch) barrel and weighed 3,600 kg (7.93 pounds). The top barrel band had a unique curved stacking hook added, a feature not found on any Berthier up until then. The stacking hook was used for interlocking small groups of rifles in an upright position like the frame of a teepee when arms were to be stacked for a period in the field. Like the rest of the previous Berthiers carbines it lacked a top hand guard, had the long brass-tipped clearing rod mounted down the left side of the forearm and used 3-shot en-bloc packet/chargers. These rifles were built solely by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC) for the basic price of 51,58 Francs and possibly only 25,000 were made of this model. These were delivered to Indochina in the following numbers: 1904 - 4,500 total sent in February, 2,500 went to La Direction d'Artillerie de Saigon and 2,000 to La Direction d'Artillerie de Hanoi, 1906 - 10,000 total were sent by Établissement Schneider et Cie via rail by way of the Trans-Siberian Railroad and after a few minor problems with the Russians accepting the cargo they finally arrived in Indochina in April of 1908, 1907 - 4,200 total sent, 3,200 for forces in Tonkin and 1,000 for forces in Annam, 1910 - 1,300 total sent in February, 1911 - 2,500 total sent in February. The Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1902 was nearly identical in design to the Gendarmerie bayonet and the two are interchangeable. The bayonet was found to be too long for the smaller stature soldiers and was shortened in 1912 from 520mm (20.4 inch) to 420mm (16.5 inch) to better accommodate them.

There are some collectors who believe that some of the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 were modified at this date with the unique curved stacking hook to arm some of the various colonial and French Alpine troops called Chasseurs Alpins. They refer to this weapon as the Carabine Colonial Modèle 1902 or Carabine Alpine Modèle 1902 but no such model exists in the French texts of any period regarding this name, it is believed that probably the armorers did this on their own accord to give them an easier way to stack these weapons rather than using the clearing rods.

1908 - The Fusil de Tirailleur Sénégalais Modèle 1907 was adopted for service on June 19,1908. With the introduction of this rifle the Berthier finally came of age as a full-length infantry rifle. This rifle was meant to arm the colonial troops in the French African colonies particularly Senegal, these regiments were drawn from the population of various Senegalese tribesmen, all of whom were tall in stature. These rifles were built solely by Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Châtellerault (MAC), it had a 0,800m (31 1/2") barrel, an overall length of 1,305m (51 3/16") and weighed 3,800kg (8.37 pounds). Like all previous Berthiers it lacked a top hand guard and used 3-shot en-bloc packet/charger but utilized the curved stacking hook on the top barrel band as found on the Indochinois. One feature that was completely eliminated was the brass-tipped clearing rod. The Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1907 is almost identical in pattern to that of the Indochinois but the bayonets are not interchangeable due to the diameter of the muzzle ring required to fit the larger muzzle diameter of the rifle barrel and it also did not have the groove that extends down the left side of the bayonet grip. 10 rifles were made in 1908, 818 in 1909, 2,416 in 1910 and after this date it unknown how many were made but it is believed only less than 10,000 were made of this model. This model was plagued with a number of faults and breakage of parts due to the very high humidity conditions these weapons were being used in which caused a number of high ranking officers and officials to cease issuing them until the problem could be resolved, which was never overcome due to start of The Great War in August of 1914.

1909 - A recoil lug was added to the rear of the receiver to help prevent the wrist breakages in the stock and the stock was dovetailed to fit this modification. The Carabine de Cavalerie Modèle 1890 1ème type were started to be modified with a sling bar that was placed on left side of stock superseding the original sling swivel on the bottom of the stock.

1910 - On May 22 the Ministre de la Guerre decided they wanted to build a experimental carbine for the various Dragoon Regiments and under the guidance of the S.T.A. and MAC 100 Model 1890’s were converted for this experimentation. This weapon was to be called the Carabine de Dragons Modèle 1890 which had two unique features never seen before on Berthiers up to this date, a 29,5cm (11.6 inch) reversible triangular bayonet and full length hand guard running the top of the barrel from the front of the receiver to the front barrel band. The bayonet system was unique in that it was the first French design of having a bayonet meant to stay with the carbine at all times. The bayonet was latched and unlatched by means of a catch underneath the special bayonet housing and it rested against the right side of the stock when it was not in use. A brass-tipped clearing rod was mounted down the left side of the forearm. These were issued to the 16ème Regiment de Dragons stationed at Riems in November of 1911 for service testing at both Camp de Châlons and Camp de Versailles. After these initial tests it was found that these carbines needed more modifications done to them and on July 26, 1912 they were returned back for more field testing. In January of 1914 MAC built approximately 400 of these weapons for more service testing but was finally ceased in August of 1914 due to start of The Great War. Most of these weapons were either scrapped or re-built into other configurations during the war and only 2 are now known to exist with one located at the Musée de la MAS in France. This system was to be re-introduced in the 1928-1934 trials for what would become the Fusil MAS 36.

1914-1918 - La Grande Guerre - During The Great War, the French did what they had to do to make complete weapons especially after the Battle of Verdun known as the "meat grinder" during the first half of 1916 which chewed up men and material at an unprecedented pace. The ongoing struggle waged by the French Ordnance Department to arm the troops at the front, along with each year's new draft of teenagers, resulted in large-scale small arms salvage operations, where teams of scroungers were picking up these weapons all along the various fronts and were returned to the nearest facility for re-build and re-issue. They did not stand on ceremony, all of the pre war fussiness was tossed, and they re-built them as fast as possible into any functional model that they could. The French arsenals put together rifles and carbines with whatever parts were on hand at any given moment, battlefield-recovered weapons were frequently rebuilt using parts from different models which resulted in one of the more interesting aspects of collecting WWI-issue Berthier rifles and carbines. Rifles are found with carbine bolts, carbines with rifle bolts, and when it comes to stock furniture, you name it!. The easiest way to determine the number of potential wartime variations is to take a stack of Berthier components from the various models and see how many different ways you could possibly put them together, you will be surprised at what you could make!, so the next time you stumble across a Berthier at a gun shop, in the rack at a gun show, or on the various internet firearm auction sites don't be surprised if it has one or more feature from several different models but do remember though that what ever configuration the weapon is at the present state is now is the nomenclature of this particular weapon.

1915 - As the war went into its second year with the Western Front having one solid line of massive trenches from the coast in Belgium to the Alp Mountain Range on the Swiss border and the cavalry trooper was no longer being on horseback but instead manning the trenches as Infantrymen, the various cavalry carbines began to be converted to the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 configuration by shortening the forend of the stock and fitting them with a bayonet lug. The Carabine de Cuirassiers Modèle 1890 stocks were replaced with the Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle 1892 combed stocks but most still retained the double sole leather butt plates.

As France had suffered amounts of staggering defeats at the outbreak of the war bringing the Germans within striking distance of Paris, with massive losses suffered with the crushing defeat of "Plan 17", the "Battle of the Frontiers", and the eventual "Miracle on the Marne" staved off a potential German victory but at a terrible cost which nearly brought the country to its knees. French forces were desperately short of weapons to equip the replacements for the 1,000,000 casualties suffered before the end of 1914, one answer was to increase production of the Berthier system already in production. The end result was the slightly altered variation of the Fusil de Tirailleur Sénégalais Modèle 1907 to be called the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915, which was adopted for service on February 26,1915 and was produced with the 3 shot en-bloc packet/charger because it could be pushed into mass production with an absolute minimal number of changes. This weapon was identical with the exception of the beefed-up straight bolt handle, a round bolt-knob and a redesigned nose cap with straight ball-tipped stacking hook for the standard Epée-Baïonnette Modèle 1886. Note: Very few of these first production rifles did have a bent bolt which was later changed to the straight type for easier opening of the bolt in combat. The production number for these rifles that are known are as follows: May: 1,470, August: 46,000, October: 51,000, December: 54,000, the maximum number was obtained in July of 1916 with 101,511. The final production numbers reached by the end of the war was a staggering 2,387,541.

1916 - Since the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 production was well underway, two French designers, Sous-Lieutenant Vibert and Généraux Principaux Chossé, started to work in March to match the 5-round capacity of the German Infanterie Gewehr 1898, with Sous-Lieutenant Vibert design being adopted on November 11 culminating in the both the Fusil de Infanterie Modèle Modifié 1916 and Mousqueton d'Artillerie Modèle Modifié 1916. Both the rifle and carbine were exactly identical to the various rifles and carbines already in production except that they had an addition of an extended 5-round magazine and a top hand guard. Due to the extreme taper of the Cartouche à Balle Modèle 1898 D, the extended magazine is substantially thicker and deeper in the back and slopes forward toward the stock. As originally issued, the extended magazine retained the same rectangular opening in the floor plate to allow the expulsion of the empty en-bloc packet/charger upon reloading but in the mud. dirt and filth of the trenches, all of these designs proved susceptible to collecting foreign debris through the charger ejection port causing enumerable jams as the dirt and crud collected on the cartridges which was then carried into the action. The French lessened this problem somewhat by adding a spring-retained cover over the ejection port so that the soldier could either flip it open manually or just force a fresh en-bloc packet/charger into the magazine forcing the cover open to allow the charger to fall free from the magazine system. The cover could the either be closed by the soldier or simply left open if firing was continual. The rear barrel band was also replaced with one that fit over the hand guard to keep it in place. A straight ball-tipped stacking hook was added to upper band of the various Carabines and Mousquetons but in very limited numbers.

1920 - "A" sights were started to be adopted, these were squared notched rear sights which were meant to replace the earlier rear sight notched V sights. These sights did not quite replace the older sights of the majority of the weapons already in service. If these sights were used they were supposed to be marked with an "A" on base of the rear sight.

The majority of the Carabine de Cuirassiers Modèle 1890 were started to be converted, to have hand guards added as well as the 5 shot en-bloc packet/charger system starting in November. 10,000 Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902 were converted to this system as well, with another 2,200 done in 1921 and 1,000 in 1924.

1927 - This was the year when the majority of modifications were started which happened to be the biggest, most extensive re-building program for the French military after The Great War, and as had been done before they did what they had to do to make complete weapons into any functional model that they could again using any parts that were on hand. The biggest difference this time was the stock, in which clearing rod was removed and the clearing rod channel on the left side of the forearm was filled in with an arsenal patch or completely restocked without the clearing rod channel. In addition, a straight ball-tipped stacking hook was added to the left side of the top barrel band in which two small holes were drilled in the original top barrel band, the stacking hook was pinned and then brazed to the side of the top barrel band.

Sometime around 1930, they began to update the receivers of guns made before 1909 in which a recoil lug was added to the earlier receivers by a dovetail slot and pin, these were brazed or hard soldered to the receiver. This modification was done at MAC and when completed they struck a proof mark across the joint. This work is almost totally perfect and reflects the peacetime efforts to rebuild at a leisurely pace.

1932 - Modèle 1932N was adopted for use, this cartridge was designed for long range shooting in Heavy Machine Guns, such as the Mitrailleuse Hotchkiss Modèle 1914 and it is much more powerful than the regular rifle ammo at the time Cartouche Modèle 1898 D. This cartridge has a much heavier bullet being pushed by a bigger powder charge resulting in a higher chamber pressure, thus firing this cartridge in a non-modified rifle will most may lead to a catastrophic failure!. This cartridge may chamber alright in your non-modified rifle which does not N stamps on barrel and receiver at 12 O'clock position, but not only it will generate much higher pressures than expected but this will be compounded by the fact that the neck chamber (collet) of your rifle is not sized up to allow the neck of the this cartridge to expand sufficiently to release the bullet as designed the end result being soon or later a catastrophic failure of the rifle with injuries or worst for the shooter and any onlookers. A common misconception is the maximum diameter of the Modèle 1932N bullet is exactly the same as the Cartouche Modèle 1898 D bullet: 8,32mm (.3275 inch). The big difference between the solid brass lathe turned "D" bullet and the lead-core “N” bullet beside the weight is the location of their maximum diameter:

On the fore part of the bullet, before the crimping groove and outside of the case neck for the "D" bullet.

On the aft part of the bullet, after the crimping groove and inside the case neck for the “N” bullet.

Due to the above, the enlarged neck of the Modèle 1932N cartridge had to have a maximum acceptable diameter of 9.02mm instead of 8.80mm for the previous cartridges. The origin of the chamber re-throating, which was marked with N stamps on barrel and receiver at 12 O'clock, was carried out on the various weapons in service that were still in French inventory as of 1934, with most being done during the period 1935 to 1939. One other fact is there is no such item as a "N" cartridge in French texts, if you wish to use the correct name for this cartridge, you would have to call it Cartouche Modèle 1932N. The "N" label is a misinterpretation as there was indeed a Balle D bullet in French inventory there never was a Balle N bullet. The meaning of “N” being new or nouveau in French.

1934 - Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1907-1915 Modifié 1934 ... 50,000 Fusils converted to 7.5x54mm

1937 - A very small number of Fusil de Tirailleur Indochinois Modèle 1902 were converted at this time to 7.5x54mm. These are marked on the left side of the receiver Type S.E - MAS 1902 M.37, SE means Service d'Etudes which was a workshop of Manufacture Nationale d'Armes de Saint Etienne (MAS) dedicated to making prototype or very small runs of weapons for testing purpose before the approval of a model for full scale line fabrication.

Berthier Boitiers

All of these carbines are on display at the Musée de la MAS in France

Berthier Boitier No1 bis

http://www.postimage.org/Pq267gVi.jpg[/pic]

Mousqueton d'Artillerie Essais No2 bis

http://www.postimage.org/Pq267bW0.jpg[/pic]

Carabine d'Cavalarie Essais No3 bis

http://www.postimage.org/Pq267jpr.jpg[/pic]
Vive la République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

Vive le Pinard !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0
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