Painted finish on Berthier carbine.

The country that avoids war and the country that fights but has a hard time winning have been combined. The Swiss made some excellent firearms and the French made some unique and occaisonally inspiring ones.

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much1
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Painted finish on Berthier carbine.

Postby much1 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:25 am

I recently purchased at auction what I believe to be a Berthier Mdle 1892 carbine. The gun has a glossy black painted finish on all visible metal parts with the exception of the bolt. Given the condition of the stock (many small patches and other repairs) I assume there was an arsenal rework done at some time in the past. Is this type of painted finish authentic to these weapons ? If so, was it done when built or as part of the arsenal refurb process ? Any input would be appreciated.
rayg
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Re: Painted finish on Berthier carbine.

Postby rayg » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:45 am

much1, I have three prewar MAS 36 rifles and they all have the black paint finish referred as "stoved". I believe they continued to use that finish up to the later 1940's. I'm not sure when they started to use that type of finish but I imagine if your rifle's finish was well worn, and went through a arsenal refinish in the 30's, they might have stoved the finish. Ray
much1
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Re: Painted finish on Berthier carbine.

Postby much1 » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:47 pm

Thanks for the reply RAYG. I was contemplating stripping the finish but now I'll leave as is.
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DuncaninFrance
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Re: Painted finish on Berthier carbine.

Postby DuncaninFrance » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:42 am

I just asked a friend of mine about this, will keep you posted :FRA:
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DuncaninFrance
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Re: Painted finish on Berthier carbine.

Postby DuncaninFrance » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:18 am

Is it possible for you to post pictures of both sides of the rifle please much1 as my friend in crime says that they were mostly blued not painted! He is happy to do a little research for me :lol: :lol:
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rayg
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Re: Painted finish on Berthier carbine.

Postby rayg » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:54 am

Berthiers were all originally blued but stoving was used for the MAS 36's rifles at least by the mid 1930's and it's not inconcievable that if the original bluing/finish of your Berthier was very worn, and it was arsenal refurbished during that period, that they may have stoved it. That is just a guess, but if rearsenaled in the 1930's it would seem logitical as that was the finish they were using then.
If your rifle was painted after service and if recently done, you might still be able to detect a slight paint odor. Also the paint might scratch fairly easy as the arsenal stoving is fairly hard and might have been baked on.
Maybe Patrick, kelt, dale, doc, or giles would comment about the the Berthier stoving and also how original stoving was applied by the arsenal if baken on or not. I know the stoving was applied on the MAS 36's after the metal was acid etched. Ray
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Re: Painted finish on Berthier carbine.

Postby DuncaninFrance » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:16 pm

OK. Here is the definitive answer..............

No Arsenal paint-finish for Berthiers unless it is a 07-15 M34 (modified to accommodated the new 7.5mm ammo)

Hope that clears that one up! :cool: :cool:
Duncan

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rayg
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Re: Painted finish on Berthier carbine.

Postby rayg » Sun Feb 06, 2011 10:27 am

Duncan, just curios but did you ask your source specifically if it was possible that if a Berthier was arsenal refinished in the 30's if they could have received stoving. and not just if all Berthiers were blued, as we know they all originally were. However it seems that if the the arsenal was stoving the modified 07-15 M34 as mentioned then maybe it still could be possible they used the same finish on a Berthier if one passed through the arsenal for some reason and was refinished. As it would seem they discontinued blueing and were using stoving by then.
However if you did ask that question and your source says that no Berthiers were ever refinished using stoving then, then that would be as you say the definitive answer.
And would confirm without a doubt, that much1's gun was civilian/bubba painted. :cry: Ray
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Re: Painted finish on Berthier carbine.

Postby DuncaninFrance » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:54 pm

Will ask the question Ray, he might tell me to p*ss off though!!
Duncan

What contemptible scoundrel has stolen the cork to my lunch? -- W.C. Fields
"Many of those who enjoy freedom know little of its price."
You can't fix Stupid, but you can occasionally head it off before it hurts something.

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Re: Painted finish on Berthier carbine.

Postby rayg » Mon May 09, 2011 6:21 pm

Well apparently they started parkerizing rebuilt carbines in the 30's. Here was a response to a question a poster had on his carbine which was rebuilt with a 1939 dated barrel. Doesn't answer the stoving question but does show they didn't always blue rebuilt rifles but parkerized some. Just a thought, if they had quit bluing in the 30's they just might paint/stove some guns that were not in need of a total rebuild/refinish. Just some thoughts, Ray


Your weapon is among the last "produced" in 8 mm Lebel. As VivelaColo said, made from already existing spare parts. It was really a "reconstruction", most of the time, with a new barrel and a new stock, handguard. The other parts were sanded or even machined and received a new surface treatment. They preferred to give a new serial number to the rebuilt weapons. It was simpler, since the spare parts were coming from different weapons and avoided the problem of two weapons with the same serial number. Your weapon is relatively unusual : the receiver has kept its original markings. Most of the time, they were machined and replaced by a simple "M16". The markings of yours has been kept, probably because it already had the "M16" stamp. Most of the time, the goal of that work was to hide or uniformise the different existing markings (1890-1892- M16). The "PK" marking means that the receiver was Parkerised. You will probably find this marking somewhere on the mag too. The MAC has begun to use parkerisation on the carbines in 1934 and they stamped the parts which have received such a treatment when they could.
Unclefrank
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Re: Painted finish on Berthier carbine.

Postby Unclefrank » Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:13 am

Our family has a Berthier carbine thats a WWI bring back by my GGrandfather. It has a painted finish. It's been in the family for all these years and my father is very sure that nobody here painted it.

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