Found K98, should I buy?

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Found K98, should I buy?

Post by HK_USP_45 » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:47 am

I've been wanting a German K98 for a while, and found one yesterday at the Cabela's gun library. They want $499 for it. It looks to be in good condition, though the stock looks too good to be original. It has the serial number in the stock, though not sure if legit. It has Nazi proofs, which is something I've wanted.

My biggest concern is that it's a Mitchell's Mausers, which I've read a lot about online, doing some questionable things. I posted some pics of the rifle. Is there anything any of you know about MM that you can tell me could be faked on this rifle? I won't buy it if it's too jacked. For instance, I could buy it if the stock has been refinished, but wouldn't buy it if the receiver or barrel markings have been tampered with. It doesn't have to be historically perfect for me, just a good legitimate representation. If I don't buy this one, it will be while before I get one -- this is with a Cabelas gift card. All of my money is being tied up in other firearms at the time. I am definitely leaning towards buying it.
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Re: Found K98, should I buy?

Post by joseyclosey » Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:18 pm

Being from the UK I don't feel qualified to really answer your questions HK. I have read about about some questionable practices by MM myself although the price, going by UK prices, seems to be in the ball park. But do bear in mind we do seem to pay higher fot our milsurps compared to the US

I reckon your fellow countrymen could advise you better on this one.

Good luck with the purchase if you make it.

Joe
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Re: Found K98, should I buy?

Post by Niner » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:00 pm

Well.... from Mitchells to start with means somebody probably paid too much. Cabela's selling it now means they took it in trade from somebody , and judging from all reports,after buying it cheap turned around and put some high retail figure on it. That being said....looks like the rifle hasn't been scrubbed by some former iron curtain country which is a plus. I've got a couple K98's that got scrubbed in Czech hands that I paid $100 each for a dozen years ago. The byf mark in the photo means Mauser-Werke, Oberndorf am Neckar, Germany was where it was made. The laminated stock would have been correct for a rifle made in 1944. You need to check to see how many of the serial numbers match.

SOG had a 1944 K98 with all matching numbers with the correct sling and the cleaning rod advertised for about $1000 recently. However, back a few years ago when a boat load of Russian war reparation Mausers came in, with the Nazi arsenal marks still on them, they were selling for about half of what Cabela's is asking.....if I remember right. And if I were a betting man, I'd say Mitchells Mausers was passing on their share of the Russian supply.

Condition and how well matched the numbers are would be a consideration to me before making a guess as to value. And.....you could make a low ball offer and see what they said. Another thing with Mitchell is that at one time they were offering some "reconditioned collector models" at some price around $500 that would not have been one any collector would pay that much for just because they "reconditioned" it.

Check this out..... http://www.mauser.org/german-k98-mauser-rifle/

Look and see if you can find the import mark on it. It would tell you who brought it into the country. If it was CIA it should be marked on the barrel an inch or so behind the front sight.
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Re: Found K98, should I buy?

Post by Niner » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:18 pm

While I'm thinking about it....I took a snap of the number in the stock of one of mine. The stock itself has a big wood patch in it so I know it was at least used at one time or the other.
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Re: Found K98, should I buy?

Post by HK_USP_45 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:47 am

Niner wrote:Well.... from Mitchells to start with means somebody probably paid too much. Cabela's selling it now means they took it in trade from somebody , and judging from all reports,after buying it cheap turned around and put some high retail figure on it. That being said....looks like the rifle hasn't been scrubbed by some former iron curtain country which is a plus. I've got a couple K98's that got scrubbed in Czech hands that I paid $100 each for a dozen years ago. The byf mark in the photo means Mauser-Werke, Oberndorf am Neckar, Germany was where it was made. The laminated stock would have been correct for a rifle made in 1944. You need to check to see how many of the serial numbers match.

SOG had a 1944 K98 with all matching numbers with the correct sling and the cleaning rod advertised for about $1000 recently. However, back a few years ago when a boat load of Russian war reparation Mausers came in, with the Nazi arsenal marks still on them, they were selling for about half of what Cabela's is asking.....if I remember right. And if I were a betting man, I'd say Mitchells Mausers was passing on their share of the Russian supply.

Condition and how well matched the numbers are would be a consideration to me before making a guess as to value. And.....you could make a low ball offer and see what they said. Another thing with Mitchell is that at one time they were offering some "reconditioned collector models" at some price around $500 that would not have been one any collector would pay that much for just because they "reconditioned" it.

Check this out..... http://www.mauser.org/german-k98-mauser-rifle/

Look and see if you can find the import mark on it. It would tell you who brought it into the country. If it was CIA it should be marked on the barrel an inch or so behind the front sight.
It has a MMC import mark, so it was Mitchells that imported it. All the number match (receiver, bolt, stock), but that was one of the things that I've heard Mitchells does. The stock looks newly refinished and stamped looks new, but I'm not an expert. A guy on another forum said that the highly polished and shiny bolt is a MM signature move.
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Re: Found K98, should I buy?

Post by Niner » Fri Dec 28, 2012 10:31 am

In Russia and their European satellite states after WWII, after reparations were handed out, there was, as we know, a tendency to take everything apart and then put it back together without respect to serial number. Mass production and interchangeability of parts was a faith they invested in.......Communism of parts I guess. I'll add a couple of examples from my collection. But unlike Mosin Nagants, with lined through serial numbers to "force match" bolts and receiver, the Mausers have deeply engraved serial numbers, particularly on bolt handles, that seem to be whatever they were originally although, as in my case, part of mix master weapons. But the mixing of serial numbers exists with no attempt to hide any of them on standard imports that I know of....just the Nazi factory and proof marksmarks were removed on many of them like those I own.

I'd think Mitchells could cause some kind of BATF problem if they removed original serial numbers and put on some they made up. Now this doesn't mean some supplier couldn't have done it before import. Century, of recent years, has been known to add their own serial numbers to weapons without causing any legal question to come up.....but they didn't remove any existing serial numbers...just added one. While mulling this over you also have to be sure this isn't converted from 8mm Mauser to .308 from some place like Israel. I got a feeling some of those Israeli imports may have more matching parts even with new chamberings.

Mitchells would give me pause too based on Internet messageboard chatter. However, I have no idea if what you are seeing is a bargain matching serial number rifle or some kind of deception. With matching serial numbers I'd be thinking hard about it as a buy though. The depth of the original bolt handle and receiver serial numbers would make tampering difficult without leaving obvious signes of removal of metal.

I just took a look at Gunboards. There is a string that has a group of guys all saying that Mitchell scrubbed and replaced serial numbers to match on K98K's . However, none of the mob of nay sayers confesses to owning one or proving that Mitchell did alter serial numbers. I would want better evidence of deception before writing off an all matching Mauser with Mitchell connections. But....

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... -s-Mausers
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Re: Found K98, should I buy?

Post by HK_USP_45 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:01 pm

Niner wrote:In Russia and their European satellite states after WWII, after reparations were handed out, there was, as we know, a tendency to take everything apart and then put it back together without respect to serial number. Mass production and interchangeability of parts was a faith they invested in.......Communism of parts I guess. I'll add a couple of examples from my collection. But unlike Mosin Nagants, with lined through serial numbers to "force match" bolts and receiver, the Mausers have deeply engraved serial numbers, particularly on bolt handles, that seem to be whatever they were originally although, as in my case, part of mix master weapons. But the mixing of serial numbers exists with no attempt to hide any of them on standard imports that I know of....just the Nazi factory and proof marksmarks were removed on many of them like those I own.

I'd think Mitchells could cause some kind of BATF problem if they removed original serial numbers and put on some they made up. Now this doesn't mean some supplier couldn't have done it before import. Century, of recent years, has been known to add their own serial numbers to weapons without causing any legal question to come up.....but they didn't remove any existing serial numbers...just added one. While mulling this over you also have to be sure this isn't converted from 8mm Mauser to .308 from some place like Israel. I got a feeling some of those Israeli imports may have more matching parts even with new chamberings.

Mitchells would give me pause too based on Internet messageboard chatter. However, I have no idea if what you are seeing is a bargain matching serial number rifle or some kind of deception. With matching serial numbers I'd be thinking hard about it as a buy though. The depth of the original bolt handle and receiver serial numbers would make tampering difficult without leaving obvious signes of removal of metal.

I just took a look at Gunboards. There is a string that has a group of guys all saying that Mitchell scrubbed and replaced serial numbers to match on K98K's . However, none of the mob of nay sayers confesses to owning one or proving that Mitchell did alter serial numbers. I would want better evidence of deception before writing off an all matching Mauser with Mitchell connections. But....

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... -s-Mausers
Thanks for the input, that sounds pretty logical. I asked the same question n gun boards, and everyone is telling me to run. Here's a link, is what they're saying legit?
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread. ... ost2405103
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Re: Found K98, should I buy?

Post by Niner » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:27 pm

I don't know how much credibility any of those gunboards guys have. I don't see why being a Russian capture.....meaning spoils of war and maybe not actually capture ... would make any difference as to how genuine the serial numbers are or how genuine the rifle is as to being a Nazi era weapon of war. X or asterisk... so what? So.....did Mitchells tamper with it to the point of faking matching numbers? I don't know and those guys writing all that advice at gunboards don't know either. I would wonder why any dealer would go to the risk of being found out while advertising in Guns and Ammo and the NRA magazines.

At least it looks right. I got a Yugo K98K that had the receiver ring completely scrubbed and a big Yugo stamp put in its place. It has a Preduzece stamp on the side opposite the serial number. However, they missed a few Nazi stamps and it is a genuine K98K.

If you are undecided....why not make an offer to Cabela's . Offer them say...$270 and if they come back with $450... step up to $300 if you like. If you buy it within that range you can't be hurt whatever the truth of the tampering or not tampering.
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Re: Found K98, should I buy?

Post by HK_USP_45 » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:06 am

Niner wrote:I don't know how much credibility any of those gunboards guys have. I don't see why being a Russian capture.....meaning spoils of war and maybe not actually capture ... would make any difference as to how genuine the serial numbers are or how genuine the rifle is as to being a Nazi era weapon of war. X or asterisk... so what? So.....did Mitchells tamper with it to the point of faking matching numbers? I don't know and those guys writing all that advice at gunboards don't know either. I would wonder why any dealer would go to the risk of being found out while advertising in Guns and Ammo and the NRA magazines.

At least it looks right. I got a Yugo K98K that had the receiver ring completely scrubbed and a big Yugo stamp put in its place. It has a Preduzece stamp on the side opposite the serial number. However, they missed a few Nazi stamps and it is a genuine K98K.

If you are undecided....why not make an offer to Cabela's . Offer them say...$270 and if they come back with $450... step up to $300 if you like. If you buy it within that range you can't be hurt whatever the truth of the tampering or not tampering.
Your point about them not tampering with proofs due to issues with import laws is a good point and sounds very valid. So you think there's no way the nazi proofs on this one are fraudulent?

I think I will make an offer, and see if they take it.
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Re: Found K98, should I buy?

Post by Niner » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:20 am

I don't know that the multitude of negative comments don't have some basis in truth. But..... if I were interested in the rifle I'd look it over carefully and make up my own mind as to if the serial numbers look legit or not to me. The minor factory stamps would be of lesser concern as they could be more easily faked and the proof of the matter would hinge on the receiver and bolt serial numbers matching. If I suspected one or the other of them weren't original I wouldn't pay anything close to what Cabelas is asking. Whatever you do just be satisfied in your own mind before you do it. My opinion is just that, an opinion, and I have only small time collector status and am certainly no expert on this question at all.

Maybe you could get an agreement from Cabela's that you could return it if you found a gunsmith that could tell if any of the serial numbers had been altered in any way. I would suspect Cabela's wouldn't want to sell a firearm with a questionable serial number in a "matching" serial number surplus rifle and would gladly return your money.


Let us know what you end up doing.

You could also make a run of the Pawn shops. Must be a few Mausers out there in your local area.
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