Black guns........

The forum for comments about auto rifles with military connections.
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Niner Delta
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Black guns........

Postby Niner Delta » Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:09 pm

My son has one of the AR style .226/5.56 carbine rifles. It is fun to shoot and the low recoil I something
my neck appreciates. So I have been looking into these rifles and found something that is very interesting.
Are any of you familiar with what is called "80% lowers"?
It seems that AR style rifles have the serial number on the lower receiver, not on the barrel like most rifles.
The BATF says the lower receiver is the "rifle" and is the only part recorded and it's sale is restricted like any
rifle barrel. Soooooo..... since you can "manufacture" your own rifle, for your own use only, legally. Yes, the
BATF says it is legal to manufacture your own rifle, but you can't sell it or give it away, your use only.
And the BATF says that a lower is not a rifle until the last 20% of the lower is milled, companies are selling lowers that
you have to mill the last 20% yourself with a router. These lowers are not numbered and have no identification
on them and no trail of paperwork. You can buy all the other parts separately on the internet with no problem,
including the barrels. Oh, you do have to drill holes for Fire/Safe selector and trigger & hammer pins, no big deal.
So all you have to do is buy all the parts, including the 80% lower on the internet, get a router and a jig to
clamp the lower into, and router out your lower, and you have a complete and fully functional AR with no
trace of its origin...legally.

You can also buy complete upper assemblies that fit right onto the lower in 300 Blackout and 7.62x39.

I'm seriously considering trying it............. Any thoughts on this?????


The pics are before you mill out the trigger hole and after.



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Niner
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Re: Black guns........

Postby Niner » Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:00 pm

I got a feeling a lot of people have done the make your own Black rifle thing. You see the parts sold by lots of gun dealers as uppers and lowers. I haven't and don't plan to try making one as long as you can buy a legitimate model from any gun store...in my state at least. And I don't have a store bought fully made one. But.. must be a lot of make it yourself stuff out there as other gun boards talk about it.

Looks like there is a big story in the news.. and Hillary is part of it... the current thing is to want to hold gun makers accountable for any nut job that buys one and shoots some people....particularly as heartbreaking as the small children that were murdered. You'd think the anti gun lobby would be all over this loophole. Even though.. there hasn't been a case, yet , where a roll your own AR was the weapon that did the deed in some nut job murder incident.

I'm not saying don't try it.... I don't have any experience nor desire to do this.

I'd like to have the one I left in Vietnam... but some commie has it now... if it still exists. I wouldn't be allowed to own it now anyway because of the full auto selection.
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deadin
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Re: Black guns........

Postby deadin » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:54 am

I took a look at these and came to the conclusion that making one might be a fun project, but that's about all. By the time you buy all the parts to assemble one, you really won't save all that much and you might have a can of worms when it comes to function.
As for having a "untraceable" rifle, why?? Are you planning to go out and shoot something up and then leave the rifle there and they won't be able to track it back to you? :shock:
If it comes to registration, taxing or confiscation I would imagine that just possessing an unregistered, untaxed or unconfiscated rifle will be a crime comparable to having an unregistered full auto today.
While many seem to go with the old adage of "It's not a crime unless you get caught" I will counter with "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time".
So, finally, If you want the giggles of making something that may or may not work and that you can't get rid of other than turning it in, or destroying the lower and reselling the left-over parts (at a loss), go for it..... :(
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Re: Black guns........

Postby Niner Delta » Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:12 pm

Having made one, it is fun to do the work on it. But you are correct about the price, unless you want a whole
collection of them. The price of the 80% receiver is a little more than a manufactured one, but the manuf. one has
to go through local gun store, just like a whole rifle, and that add quite a bit to the price of a $50 part. Also you need
to add in the price of equipment to do a decent job on a 80% lower, drill press, router, machine vise, and what is
called a 80% lower jig set ($200). The kit had jig, tooling, and everything you need to not screw it up, and it will make
as many as you want. There is definitely no cost advantage if you are going to build just one, especially now that the
prices of complete rifles have come down to under $500 for standard AR-15 models. The fun part was buying all the
different pieces, seeing them spread all over the bench and then putting it all together and having a fully functional
rifle. And it functions perfectly, having put a couple of thousand round through it in the last year, it's fun.
As far as being "untraceable", I bought it online with a credit card, so they could find me if they want.... I guess.
And it is still completely legal in this state, but I guess if that ever changes I would have to register it. I built it
for fun, not to do anything illegal.
So far it's not a crime anywhere that I know of, California (where else.. :roll: ) has talked about making you register
them, but don't think that has happened yet. And I think the worst that will ever happen is registration and adding
a serial number, not turning them in or destruction.
And if I were to lose a few hundred dollars on making these.... well, I certainly have pissed away more money than
that on things that weren't nearly as much fun....... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

So I went for it...... :D



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deadin
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Re: Black guns........

Postby deadin » Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:35 pm

As I admitted, building one might be fun. Building a bunch of them might be a sickness. What would someone do with a couple of dozen homebuilts that they can't legally get rid of? Even if you put serial numbers on them, they're still homebuilt and can't be sold or transferred. (Unless the builder registers and gets a manufacturer license. $$$$$).
I seem to recall a guy selling composite 80% lowers complete with a "one-time" use jig at a gunshow about a year ago. As I remember they were dirt cheap. (They were so cheap that I would worry about how long they would last...)

I already have the machine tools needed (lathe, mill, etc.) and just hope I don't get so bored that I decide to make one. (I had an Armalite AR15/M4 years ago and it didn't do a thing for me. Same thing with M1 Carbine's AK's and SKS's.
I guess I'm just not into spraying the countryside..... ;) )
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Niner
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Re: Black guns........

Postby Niner » Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:31 pm

Well...Vern... I admire your mechanical ability...which I don't have much of. I understand the satisfaction in making a firearm that you actually shoot. I've put some black powder kit guns together and there is some satisfaction in doing some minor gunsmithing. What you made is a step up from what I've done.
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Niner Delta
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Re: Black guns........

Postby Niner Delta » Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:18 pm

deadin.......... You obviously don't think building these are a good idea, or even having this style of semi-auto rifle,
so let's just agree to disagree..... :mrgreen:..... Since I do enjoy spraying the countryside on occasion........ :cool:
But I do agree that building a couple of dozen of them probably isn't a great idea. However, it's no big deal if you have to
toss a couple of $60 receivers and replace them with new serial numbered ones, after all, you still have the whole
rest of the rifle on your bench. Have seen those polymer lowers that you can grind out with a Dremel tool....ummm....no... :shock:
It seems to boil down to what you like to do and how much you want to spend. I do know that guns are a whole LOT
cheaper to play with than when I had classic cars and then a big motorhome. Have spent less money on my guns
than a new set of tires on the motorhome....... :lol: .... Glad I sold that money pit....

Yes Robert, I spent almost 35 years repairing industrial machinery, so I have turned a few wrenches in my day.
But putting one of these together is not rocket science, anyone that can follow written instructions can do it.
So if you can build a black powder gun, you could do one of these.


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deadin
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Re: Black guns........

Postby deadin » Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:08 pm

deadin.......... You obviously don't think building these are a good idea, or even having this style of semi-auto rifle


I was only speaking for myself. I see nothing wrong with someone else building and/or owning one. As I said, I might even be tempted to build one (and then I would also own one. ;) )
I just would rather spend my $500 (give or take) somewhere else...

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